Talk:Claude Debussy

With respect to the recent revert

I believe that the article placed rather undue weight to Taruskin's 2010 interpretation that Debussy was anti-Semitic. It doesn't make it clear that other authors disagree with his view. As I added with a source, Rosen clearly thought otherwise in 2012, proposing an interpretation of the Dukas comment as anti-Wagnerism, and cites one of the editors of Debussy's collected letters for a statement that he was not anti-Semitic.

Marie Rolf's recent 2024 article in The Musical Quarterly, which I searched after this revert (so, I suppose, thanks for prompting me to look up what's most recently been written) puts things in greater context. She notes that There is little hint of any religious conviction or genuine political opinion held by Debussy, and that he was silent during the Dreyfus affair. On the other side, she also notes that no doubt, he occasionally let slip traces of the anti-Semitism that was more or less deep-rooted and rather widespread at the time, quoting a joke he made to Henry Lerolle. So it's not at all clear that his anti-Semitism extended beyond jokes or was beyond the usual standards of the time, as was for example true of Balakirev; and it's not at all clear that the comment he made about Dukas was anti-Semitic (Taruskin's interpretation) so much as anti-Wagnerian / anti-German (Rosen's interpretation).

There's also a scholarly dispute about Chopin's views about Jews, which the Chopin FA is incidentally completely silent about. But better that than only presenting one side, I feel. Double sharp (talk) 16:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim riley: Since this might've been lost in your watchlist after the bot did its archiving. Double sharp (talk) 15:08, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

You have convinced me, at any rate. I have briefly checked biographies of Debussy by Abravanel, Barraqué, Koechlin, Laloy, Lederer, Lockspeiser, Nichols, Suarès and Vallas and found nothing about any antisemitism on Debussy's part. I hope others will express a view here. Meanwhile I suggest you leave the text as it is pending comments here from others. If there are none I'd vote for restoring your addition – though without the WP:CITEVAR violation please. Tim riley talk 16:01, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Double sharp, I'd say ample time has elapsed for other editors to add their comments, and in the absence of any I suggest you restore your addition (with the citation style of the rest of the article, please.) Tim riley talk 10:46, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tim riley: Thanks! I'm currently away, but will do it in a week when I'm back. Double sharp (talk) 13:33, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

No rush. I'll do it myself if I have time. Tim riley talk 13:49, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

And now done. Tim riley talk 14:17, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Debussy and Spain

I've been reading and hearing all my adult life how Debussy wrote some exquisitely Spanish-sounding music despite having never visited Spain, except for one very brief trip to San Sebastián in connection with a bullfight. (The details escape me.) San Sebastián is on the far west of the French-Spanish border. I've always taken that as gospel, but I've just been reading Patrice Chaplin's memoir The Portal (2010), in which she mentions numerous times Debussy's frequent visits to Girona, in the far north-eastern part of Spain. Not too far from the French border, but decidedly further into Spanish territory than San Sebastián.

Can this be verified, or debunked? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:51, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to the Internet Archive I have checked in biographies of Debussy by Jean Barraqué, Roderic Dunnett, Charles Koechlin, Louise Liebich, Edward Lockspeiser, Roger Nichols, Leonid Sabaneyev, André Suarès and Percy Young and also The Cambridge Companion to Debussy and there is not a single mention of Girona in any of them. Granted, that doesn't prove Chaplin's statement wrong but if Debussy had made "frequent visits" to Girona one might expect at least one of these biographers to have mentioned them. I don't know if it is any indication of Chaplin's general accuracy, but her own website sometimes spells the name of the city as "Gerona" and sometimes as "Girona". – Tim riley talk 07:08, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Girona-Gerona. Not to mention Salvidor [sic] Dali. Thanks for your research, Tim. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:24, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Echoes

The lead ends with the abrupt and rather painful line "Debussy died from cancer at his home in Paris at the age of 55 after a composing career of a little more than 30 years." Wouldn't it be better to end by acknowledging his influence, as that influence has lasted after his death? Wouldn't it be better to end with "His works have strongly influenced a wide range of composers including Béla Bartók, Igor Stravinsky, George Gershwin, Olivier Messiaen, George Benjamin, and the jazz pianist and composer Bill Evans"? Why not add that "Pierre Boulez described Prélude à L’Après-midi d’un Faune as 'the beginning of modern music'”?

His influence echoes after his death, like a note hanging in the air. And it stirs sympathetic resonances in others. Charlie Faust (talk) 14:35, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

SchroCat's edit summary is ad rem: "The lead is supposed to reflect the article, not become a collection of quotes and factoids that are not in the article". As I have already explained to Charlie Faust on my talk page, the three main authors of the article and all the reviewers at peer review and FAC were happy with the order, but if there is a consensus to alter the article, so be it. Tim riley talk 15:05, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Well, I don't think I added any "factoids" that are not in the article. Debussy's influence on later composers is reflected throughout the article, notably in "Influence on later composers". I think ending with his influence is better than ending with his death, since his influence has outlasted his death. It hangs in the air.

I think Debussy's influence on jazz could be accentuated. Glad we have Stravinsky and Gershwin in the lead now. Charlie Faust (talk) 15:10, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

It's not advisable to add quotes into leads about individual works when we're looking at a biography of a whole life. As to "hangs in the air", 'stirring sympathetic resonances', etc: this is an encyclopaedia, not a piece of purple prose or hagiography. - SchroCat (talk) 15:44, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Purple prose? OK, maybe a little. I was trying to be poetic, and agree such prose doesn't belong in the body of an encyclopedia article (note, though, that I didn't add it to the body of an encyclopedia article, but to the talk page.)

I do think Boulez's quote about "the beginning of modern music” belongs. Many Featured Articles round out there lead with quotes; William Shakespeare rounds out with the following from Ben Jonson: "not for an age, but for all time." (True, that's for a body of work, and not a specific work.) Boulez's quote belongs because he was one of many musicians to feel Debussy's influence. I also think the Hough piece is worth linking to because it's a good reference.

More to the point, I think ending with influence rather than the circumstances of his death is appropriate, since his influence extends beyond his death; Bill Evans, Boulez, et al. Charlie Faust (talk) 00:34, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be worth noting that his approach to timbre was innovative? As I understand it, he did for timbre what Stravinsky did for rhythm. Charlie Faust (talk) 02:51, 1 May 2025 (UTC)